Curse

necrozsi · Sep 15, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Hi, before i start i would like to remind you all that i do not hate nerf or pvp so dont get me wrong. And i wanna keep this discussion clean so flame somewhere else. Mature opinions and comments are welcomed

What i want to talk about is, Does the nerf on skills for pvp that ANET makes actually work?

You must be wondering, of course they work! cuz they make the popular cheese builds weaker and less effective.
Here is an example, during the recent release, Spikers had one of the lighting skills nerfed, (chain lighting i believe, but u get the point) and also due to the excessive amount of smite teams in HOH, Zealot Fire has also been nerfed a bit.

Now what the nerf did was make those builds weaker, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. However, stop and think for a second. Lets say that now Smite build / Spiker build is less effective than before. And some people decides to test with new builds. That would be a good thing right? because people are testing with new builds rather than playing only Smite / Spiker Builds.

But this is where the problem is...Lets say for example A new build is discovered and is quiet overpowered / or atleast very effective.
( JUST FOR EXAMPLE : lets say a group of 8 necros is the new popular build that is very effective )
Its only human nature to copy that build, so once people begins to realize how effective the 8 necro build is, everyone will switch to that.
Why? because the build is more effective and efficient compare to other builds. and people want to win of course.

So now ANET looks at this and go, HMM 8 necro build is too strong, lets nerf some of the skills..
So then ANET release a patch that nerfs the necros skills.

Now think about this, no matter what happens after each release/nerf...
New strong builds will always come out and the MAJORITY of the people will copy those builds.

So will ANET just keep nerfing everything because everyone uses it?
How does ANET define what is too strong and whats not? because if ANET is just going to nerf every build that is popular...then why even bother with nerfs? when the majority of the HOH players will use and copy the most effective build out there.

Another example is back then, when a ranger group with spirits was very strong, but since ANET nerfed it, no one uses that build or even rangers at all anymore. What the nerf by ANET did was not to make rangers come up with new creative builds, it sort of ended the exsistence of rangers in HOH completely, because without the spirits spam, rangers are quiet useless in builds.

So the question i have is this, How does ANET define something being overpowered? simply because everyone uses it? and if the process just repeats, it does not solve the balance problem if majority of the people just stick with the most popular/efficient build.

Aracos79 · Sep 15, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Well this is just my perspective, but to me... something is overpowered when it cannot be easily countered, and it stifles creative development.

For example, NR/Spirit Spam was overpowered because it rendered a lot of other builds basically unworkable. They simply were not viable in the face of NR/Spam. And spirits were rather difficult to counter. Now I'm not a PvP expert so I can't really comment on the state of those counters, but that's basically how I would define something as overpowered.

dargon · Sep 15, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Strong is one thing, abusive is something else. For example, the mesmer/necro fragility build. This combo of abilities can take down an unready opponent from full health to 0 in about 6 seconds. However, because it requires 4 or 5 skills to be used (5 if you want to remove hexbreaker) it's got a lot of places that it can be blocked, take out pretty much any link in the chain and the damage spike just doesn't happen. Spirits on the otherhand were abused, it was never the intention of the developers that a single team of rangers be able to get 20, let alone 100 of them out, to surround a particular point and keep people from getting through to it. That's not a strategy, it takes no skill to spam a spirit. I suspect that IWAY will be getting debuffed slightly in the near future, as IMO, it shouldn't trigger off dead pets, or atleast nomore than your own dead pet. Smite teams pretty much fall apart with a bit disenchantment, or dare I say it, Natures Renewal. As for rangers being useless in a build, thats only because the current popular builds (smite and iway) don't take advantage of the bonuses rangers can bring, such as interrupts. Rangers can spike just as well as anyone with the right team build. ANet will not nerf everything thats good, only those that are abusive.

KaPe · Sep 15, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Simple.
There is a big difference between certain build being merely good and therefore popular. There are multiple counters to "good" builds, some of them easier, some of them harder, but it's not like you see them and think "crap, I didn't take (name 5 different skills on 3 different classes), we lost).
That's what overpowered is. Easy to use, doesn't require much coordination, is not easy too counter without making a specific build, that in turn gets destroyed by just about anything else. In other word, it is something strong and difficult to counter without dedicating majority of team to it. Where people can pretty much copy&paste skills from good players and use them well without having any actual expierence or much teamplay/strategy.

EternalTempest · Sep 15, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

The developers have said there as long as there is lively change / different stragety's they not going to change things. If something becomes "stuck" (ranger spirt dropping) the dev are going to do something about it, if there's a good counter and not everyone and there brother doing the same thing it probable be left alone.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/645/645612p2.html

Quote:

How do you deal with so-called Flavor-of-the-Month builds in Guild Wars?

James Phinney: The wide variety of skill combinations in Guild Wars creates great opportunities for players to come up with creative builds that change the way the game is played. We've tried to establish a game in which counters exist that allow players to adapt if a particular build becomes too commonplace. This leads to a meta-game where different builds rise and fall in popularity and power. However we do recognize that from time to time a build is going to appear that is so much easier to execute than it is to counter that it disrupts this natural ebb and flow of balance. When this happens, we'll analyze the situation and make changes where appropriate to ensure that everyone is not forced to play a particular build to stay competitive. At the same time, because we believe it is important to provide as stable a play environment as possible, we will try to introduce balance changes in batches, such as the changes we are making for this weekend's events.

Acan Vishnu · Sep 15, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=45301

That is a very good thread about determining balance and fostering diversity in a game, there are alot of good links and alot of thought went into it. Reading that will explain alot about when things need to be brought into balance with the rest of the game.

Goonter · Sep 15, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Slightly off topic.
Once the quality of players reaches that the top 10 are facing challenging battles against the top 100, Id think the PvP in GW is really meeting its potentual.
It would be nice if we found ourselves at a point when the metagame has more that 10 popular builds that compete, not to mention the already numours unpopular builds that can compete to win too.

Observer mode is one tool that will help the learning process of casual players into good pvp competition. Hopefully, this is just the beginning of such efforts.
Maybe chapter 2 will give us 300 more new skills to make builds that will add to the growth of the metagame.

Back to topic:
I would nerf and buff skills as often as needed to reach the goals Ive stated above.
You can create a "metagame" with 3 skills, scissors/paper/rocks.
GW has a rich metagame and hopefully it gets more golden with time and experance.

fires Scape · Sep 15, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Now u made me want to try an 8 necro build pretty bad.

Pandora's box · Sep 15, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Those who read more of my posts know I oppose any nerfing. However I do support changings for better balance. I only think it should work the other way around: when a skillcombination is too strong than make other skills of other professions stronger too. And if thats causing a new balance problem in pve gaming than make monsters stronger as well. But NEVER EVER nerf! Because it kills creativity!

But Anet does not seem to realize this and that makes me sad. Especially because this game only relies on finding good skill combinations since items are capped at low levels. I would praise Anet into heaven if they started to balance by making stronger that whats too weak instead of making weaker that whats too strong...

Lioren · Sep 15, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

I only think it should work the other way around: when a skillcombination is too strong than make other skills of other professions stronger too. And if thats causing a new balance problem in pve gaming than make monsters stronger as well. But NEVER EVER nerf! Because it kills creativity!

I've heard this solution proposed before, and while it sounds good in principle, it's relatively unworkable. If they followed the strict dictum of "never nerf", the developers would be forced to rebalance and readjust all other skills (there are several hundred in Guild Wars) just because one or two were unbalanced. This takes much more work, is much more cumbersome, and is much more likely to create bugs and new imbalances than simply tweaking the one or two skills that are clearly overpowered in obvious ways.

It would be highly inefficient if the developers had to adjust hundreds of skills just because a few were out of whack, and inefficiency in the balancing effort means a less balanced game overall. I personally don't think placating those who are endeared to an overpowered build and who won't accept any perceived loss in power through "nerfs" is worth a worse game in the end.

yesitsrob · Sep 15, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

make other skills of other professions stronger too.

If it was the case that it was a few skills that are a bit underpowered, then surely this is what anet would do (they have buffed a few if i recall) - but it's really a case of the odd skill being slightly stronger than the others, which are on the same level as each other for the most of it... now what would you do? raise _all_ those other skills to be at the same level as the slightly imbalanced one, or knock the slightly imbalanced one down a notch? - I know what I'd do - The nerfs that have occured seem to be ones that Anet didn't foresee, the Zealots Fire change seems quite reasonable to me, I found it a bit silly when it worked with stances to be honest, and the Spirit Spam, it wasn't really strategy of skill - it was abbuse of what was clearly a flaw. Rather than leave a spirit spam problem in, and just buff the other skills would be absolutely immense amounts of work, and if they worked like that well, we wouldn't have additional content such as Sorrow's Furnace.

I'm not opposed to them trying to get every skill on a par with each other - and I think they've pretty much got it, I think 98% of skills are just right, Ether Renewal is still quite a lot better than any other energy regen spell - and holy wrath is still useless.

The problem with raising the strength of every skill to be level with the top skill is they'll find new balance problems... and overtime as they raise the strength of spells we'll get chain lightning doing 240.. 420 damage :-p

One and Two · Sep 16, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Some nerfs work. The builds are completely different from beta. But hey, other nerfs, like making certain areas un-soloable, dont work. People are too....determined.

aron searle · Sep 16, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Some nerfs work. The builds are completely different from beta. But hey, other nerfs, like making certain areas un-soloable, dont work. People are too....determined.

It could just be me, but i dont think anet wanted to completly nerf soloing, just make it a challenge. I think that they just wanted to stop every other player from using the same cookie cutter build.

I really think if they wanted to stop soloing in UW completly they could do it.

Just my take on it.

As for nerfing skills yes i think it works. Take spirit spamming, i heard too many people who just couldnt be bothered to do any PVP untill that was sorted.

hahman14 · Sep 16, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrozsi

( JUST FOR EXAMPLE : lets say a group of 8 necros is the new popular build that is very effective )

How did you know???

BTW thank many of you for putting what I have been arguing with to my friends into clear understandble words. This will be a good read for them

MarkyX · Sep 16, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

I think nerfs work.

This game is about coming up with your own build and playing with the many tools you have. It's about thinking outside the box.

It isn't about joining an IWAY, smite, spirit spamming, or spike group in tombs only to lose the first battle.

There is a reason why there is flavor of the month: It doesn't require any serious thought and it's easy to setup, but it can still be a major threat.

A game like this should allow people to be creative, not join in template groups. Not every necro should be expected to use tainted. Not every warrior has to high damage (every tried a shout using sword warrior?), and pets can be used.

By nerfing the popular yet somewhat overpowered abilities, the players are forced to think what is good and therefore, becoming better at the game.

The huge problems I find with PvP right now are Ether Renewal, Energy Drain, the Ranking system, and IWAY.

IWAY should NOT work on pets.

Energy Drain should be three second casting. Monks should not play as energy denial by using ONE skill.

Ether Renewal should have a cap, like maybe 3 enchantments. You can cast through backfire for Allah's sake.

The ranking system should be thrown out since all it does is create a barrier in PvP. A new player has NO chance in hell anymore to join a tombs group, limiting their ability to access a part of the game THEY PAID FOR.

So yes, I'm the fan of nerfs if the skills/classes is ruining the game. The problem is Anet takes too damn long to actually respond to problems like this. I *paid* for streaming updates, but I'm not getting it.

MarkyX · Sep 16, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

One more thing:

Quote:

without the spirits spam, rangers are quiet useless in builds.

You're an iconic example of the type of people that is ruining this game. The newb kind.

Algren Cole · Sep 16, 2005, 02:24 PM // 14:24

[QUTOE] because without the spirits spam, rangers are quiet useless in builds.[/QUOTE]

because rangers aren't effective interupters at all.....and they can't link degen skills for massive health degen....and spirits are useless if you can't spam the hell out of them....

MarkyX · Sep 16, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

[QUTOE] because without the spirits spam, rangers are quiet useless in builds.

because rangers aren't effective interupters at all.....and they can't link degen skills for massive health degen....and spirits are useless if you can't spam the hell out of them....[/QUOTE]

Let's not forgot that can't trap, become evading sword warriors, cripple people, or spam conditions.

They just REALLY suck you know.

Gwenhywar · Sep 16, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrozsi

But this is where the problem is...Lets say for example A new build is discovered and is quiet overpowered / or atleast very effective.
Its only human nature to copy that build, so once people begins to realize how effective the 8 necro build is, everyone will switch to that.
Why? because the build is more effective and efficient compare to other builds. and people want to win of course.

Copying popular builds is not necessarily a problem or a bad thing. It is much easier for beginners to learn to PvP by copying an existing build that they know works - if they learn each to play their role and to work together in that team build. It allows everyone to practice, get a better understanding of how things need to be done, and become better. My guild is using "typical" and easy to play cookie cutter builds to teach our new members that are just starting PvP the basics of GvG.

Once people learn the basics they'll be able to experiment, to come up with their own, better, more fun, more suited to their playing style, and more complicated, builds. But everyone has to learn the basics of PvP first, which is easier to done with simple, easy to play builds like smiter build.

Another reason why many chose cookie-cutter builds is: it's fast. It takes time to create a build yourself, experiment with skill setups, test it & polish it untill it works. Casual players just want to go out and have fun, they don't have hours to test build ideas.

There is not one single build that's so effective that any newbie team can beat a team of experienced players with! There is lots of counters to every build. The only exception so far has been spirit spamming that was just overpowered since it rendered more than half of all existing skills in the game completely useless.

I find it amusing to see how several of the guilds that used to win HoH in that era now have completely dissapeared from the spotlight ... obviously shows how "skilled" those players were, if they only were able to compete with one single build.

Charcoal Ann · Sep 16, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Quote:

because without the spirits spam, rangers are quiet useless in builds.

because rangers aren't effective interupters at all.....and they can't link degen skills for massive health degen....and spirits are useless if you can't spam the hell out of them....

lol oh so true.

rangers weren't nerfed. they now work the way they were intended.
i am growing to hate the rangers in grenths footprint (the enemies that is).

i imagin that the guy posting that comment can't see the point of mesmers either...

they only 'nerf' exploits. no one class should be able to solo UW better than all others. monks could. end of story.

farming is good as long as you do not have an unfair advantage over people who do not use your build. if a Me/W and all other combos could solo UW as well as the Mo/W then it would not have been 'nerfed'